Navigation
User login
Quote
The death of due process in America?
I dont want to get off on a total rant here, but I have to post something on this one. The recent capture of several alleged terrorists with Al Quaeda ties and the disruption of the alleged plot to detonate a "dirty" nuclear device in the states is GREAT GREAT NEWS. I am overjoyed that we caught these clowns before they were able to pull off such a stupid and horrible stunt (assuming all the allegations are accurate, which they admittedly probably are, but that kinda goes to the point of this rant, that assumption is one we dont make in this country, normally.)
However, regardless of how PLEASED I am that these people were captured, or how pleased the FBI is to announce some positive news for a change, or how much the politicians spouting "national security" in their campaign ads funded by soft money need to get re-elected IT IS TOTALLY FUCKING INSANE TO CALL A US CITIZEN A WARTIME COMBATANT AND DENY THAT CITIZEN DUE PROCESS!!!
One of the accused is a US citizen, from Chicago.
The adminstrations tack of NOT allowing due process, not presuming innocence, not allowing an attorney, no phone call, no hearing, no public information, etc, is crazy and scary as hell.
This is a bad guy, I know that, but whats wrong with the rest of our justice system? Why cant we fast track his trial and put him away foreve or to death ONCE CONVICTED OF A CRIME within the standard system? If our justice system cant handle this kind of responsibility then we need to trash the whole thing right now (which we probably do need to do anyway, but thats another rant), not just this case. There are plenty of bad guys out there that get caught every day, they get trials.
This is gestapo insanity and its the US government that is doing it. We call this out and CONDEMN it when China does it (or any other country for that matter). We constantly seem to have a great US double standard, you cant do that, its wrong, but hell we can.
All the privacy and civil liberties crap that I hear many people typically wailing about I dont usually agree with at all (national IDs, cameras on public streets, etc.) Yet when these things make the news people are outraged, "cameras on the street my god, its not right, my 'privacy' is being violated" (load of crap, public streets arent private, but the point is people care about that.) Yet when the most important and basic fabric of our society, in my opinion, due process, is trampled very few people even care.
br />
Amazing sheep most Americans have become.
TotSP Search
Community
Chatter
- It's really very simple
1 sec ago - I've been looking at it for
3 hours 35 min ago - Saw this at WWDC
4 hours 19 min ago - You don't need anything
1 week 3 hours ago - Hey nice article however, i
1 week 2 days ago - Appreciation
1 week 4 days ago - thanks for information...
1 week 6 days ago - In total agreement on this one
3 weeks 21 hours ago - Suggested change to wrapper
3 weeks 4 days ago - Hmmmm...i jus called it and
3 weeks 4 days ago
Comments
Re: Putting US citizens in jail indefinitely without due proces
Lately I have been troubled by exactly the same thing. I want to be a good 'patriot' and support our country in this struggle, but at the same time it is hard to watch large chunks of what always made this a great country get taken apart. I suspect the reason he is being denied due process is that they have nothing to legally hold him on. He went to Pakistan and had meetings we think were training sessions on terrorism, but since no-one was there how do we know? What about all those Taliban soldiers kept in Cuba where we insist that even the most basic rules of standard care (Geneva convention) do not apply?I guess at the end of the day my fear is Bin Laden can look upon September 11th as a success because in one horrible act he got the US to abandon a lot of the rights and values that he always hated anyway. Now as he goes to recruit future terrorist he can point to a whole list of injustices committed by the US government as proof he was right all along.Come on Mr. President we are a bigger nation than that.
Re: Putting US citizens in jail indefinitely without due proces
Dunno what to say about this stuff. Our justice system is kinda crappy. Not the intent so much as the execution. For that matter so is our political system.
The old standby of it's better than anything else out there is true, but how far can you take that?
From a slightly lazy, cynical viewpoint, whatever this administration does, probably won't really matter in the long run. IMO, however bad things get, they will get undone. Look at the insanity of McArthur and Hoover. It all gets sorted out. Not necessarily for the right reasons and certainly not always in the right manner, but it does get sorted out.
The way I see it, (and this is no great insight,) is that Law Enforcement/Feds need to be able to do their jobs. I don't wanna get exploded, radiated, poisoned, etc. I would much rather deal with some pains than any of these things happen.
Now your appropriate response will have the words 'slippery slope' in it. I just don't buy it. When it gets 'too bad,' it'll get fixed. It's happened over and over again. Just a big pendulum back and forth. Too much federalism, too little, too much, too little. Seeing as how the Politicians are 100% reactive, this is no big surprise. When is enough security too much restriction? I dunno. I gotta assume that I will know it when I see it. I just don't see 300 million people just saying. 'OK, you made rules that I don't like. But there's nothing I can do about it, so I guess that's it.' When it gets painful enough, more people will care and more people will get loud and then something will happen about it. Most likely this something will be too extreme. Then we'll get bombed again, and then it'll swing back the other way. It's just how it seems to work.
Re: Putting US citizens in jail indefinitely without due proces
First to Shmooze Guru, right on about the success aspect. Our eroding rights are a direct result of the terrorism, the terrorists in that effect win.
Second to mutt. Slippery slope arguments chap my ass, I always hate them. They are not logical, they assume a future action that has not occured, I wont go there, its the here and now. However, that being said my point is that I think the here and now is over the line, we have gone to far. I totally want law enforcement to be able to do their jobs, totally want to stop these type people, etc, but abandoning due process in my opinion has nothing to do with that.
The entire discussion of our justice system, etc, is another discussion, it needs help, but thats another matter. I think we need to put a LOT more energy into motives and less into bombs oursleves. What I mean is, if we really want to prevent a future attack then we should focus on WHY the attacks are happening, not strictly on causing them not to happen by means of force (because that is impossible, as our officials have stated.) Why is America so reviled, for that matter, why are fundamentalists violent (regardless of religion or country involved) etc. I think we may be currently making many more enemies and that may be exacerbating the problem rather than solving it. And again, we must do something I agree, I want bad guys caught, I dont want to be bombed, etc, its a complicated situation, but our brute approach just doesnt seem the best to me, especially when it threatens to trample american citizens along with the rest of the world at any cost supported by the "war on terrorism". I aint buying it, we dont have to trample everything to combat terrorism, and in my opinion in fact the trampling is one of the worst things we could do.
Re: Putting US citizens in jail indefinitely without due proces
Interesting conversation, folks.
The method of arrest, detention (and surveillance?) of this latest 'terrorist plotter' is very disquieting. I don't know that anything really was prevented or avoided; they tell us he was plotting, but it all seems rather nebulous.
As if an action, any action, was seen to be a good idea at the time?
The rapidly changing definition, rights and responsibilities of citizenship seem also cause for concern.
And have you noticed, the wonderfully open border, say with our friends to the north, is less and less a source of pride and shared community, and more and more a real obstacle to regular folks.
I agree, we should work harder at learning why people hate America, and getting them to change their minds willingly, rather than making life so much harder for them...and us by extension.
It all leaves one hoping these disturbing side effects of the war on terrorism we speak about are accidental, not purposeful...
as the singer sang... look up, look out, but don't look away
Re: Putting US citizens in jail (gaol!) indefinitely without du
Over the past few months, my friends and I have watched the US government steadily take away rights and ignore due process.
As Australians looking in from the outside all we can see is hypocracy (as you pointed out in your article... if any other country ignores due process they are denouced), but there are some other strange things that we cannot understand:
Americans are stereotyped as being very strong in standing up for their rights -- so how has the US government been able to do this to its own people without a huge outcry? (I'm glad to finally see some UC citizens expressing their own disgust at these moves... perhaps such commentary is slowly appearing) There actually seems to be more debate about the removal of rights in Australia where recently "anti-terrorism" legislation (that allowed the Attourney-General to declare a group illegal etc etc) has been defeated in the Parliament and is now going back to the drawing board. Stereotypically, Australian's don't care nearly as much about their rights as Americans...
Why is our own Australian government towing the line... Bush says "jump" and our own stupid Prime Minister (and the rest of the govt, the Opposition, the media...) all say "how high"!
I also find it hard to understand why Afghan fighters are being held in Cuba to face a US Kangaroo court. Many of the people there are not even Afghans (e.g. there are at least 2 Australians on Cuba now, they haven't had due process, naturally). If the crimes they supposedly committed were in Afghanistan, shouldn't the trial be in Afghanistan under Afghan or international law? (see your later article on the International Criminal Court :)
There is little if any justification for going into another country, arresting people, extradicting them (although that does imply a legal process, but that's another rant!), and trying them under your own laws....
e.g. in Australia, it is legal to drink alcohol when you are 18 years old, but in many US states the legal drinking age is 21. Does that mean that the US can now invade Australia, arrest all the 18 to 21 year olds that it thinks might have drunk alcohol (thus breaking US law, but not Australian law), take them to Cuba, deny them access to lawyers, the red cross or anyone else and then try them in an kangaroo court? I hope not....
*sigh*
But I'm glad to see that there is at least some questioning of the principles has started... we live in hope that some sense may prevail soon.
(And all of this is without even questioning the efficacy of bombing Afghanistan... remember that bin Laden decided that the US was evil after they bombed Iraq during the Gulf War... well now there are thousands of Afghans who believe the same, as their brothers, sisters, fathers, cousins, friends etc have been killed. They will naturally seek revenge in some way thus the cycle of violence just gets worse, not better. c.f. Israel and Palestine, Croatia and Serbia, ...)
*sigh*
Re: Putting US citizens in jail indefinitely without due proces
Why is America so reviled, for that matter, why are fundamentalists violent (regardless of religion or country involved) etc. I think we may be currently making many more enemies and that may be exacerbating the problem rather than solving it.
The short answer is that people are brought up to hate America. Period. Target of opportunity. America is big, rich, and Americans are delicate. Who would a couple of street hoodlums roll? Their neighbor who lives in the shack down the street, or the big fat cat who wanders into the wrong part of town with his fancy wife?
Propaganda is a powerful weapon. We see it here and now in America in relatively small doses. Stand up and fight for Truth! The American way is the Right Way! Etc.
Well, from what I understand (note the humility, please :) True propaganda starts as soon as kids can understand words, it starts with the morning sun and ends with late night tidbits. I can say this stuff, but I still can't truly imagine what it is like. I remember reading about the stuff in Mogadishu where on the loud speakers, the local tyrants were telling everyone that the US soldiers were there to force them to convert to Christianity. And it was believed. There is no way that we can 'change' their minds. I just don't see it happening. Until there are literally generations in these places that don't hate us, the kids will always be brought up to hate us. And, let's just say that some nutjob (foreign or domestic) does manage to @!#$ us all up so bad and the US is history. They'll just go on to the next big, rich, powerful country and start over.
"Why is America so reviled?" Because it is easy.
Re: Putting US citizens in jail indefinitely without due proces
I think the reasons that America are reviled are more complicated than that. Yes there are people brought up to hate America, but there are REASONS why they are brought up that way. There are reasons why certian socities teach and indoctrinate their children to hate the "great satan."
The reasons are very complicated, but If I dare a shot at it . . . People around the world are first of all jealous of America, that combined with suppression, invasion, bombing, policitical and economic sanctions, etc make America hated. America may not directly Invade Sudan, Syria, Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc, etc, etc, (well maybe we do, I see that 4 on this list we actually have physically attacked and bombed!) but we support efforts against nations that we dont agree with in terms of sanctions and or support for other regimes. The people living in these areas KNOW this, we call it "covert" but it is anything but. I am no expert BY ANY MEANS, I and DONT HAVE THE REAL ANSWERS, but I am simply stating in my article that we should INVESTIGATE THE CAUSES MORE RATHER THAN BOMB THE OBLIVION OUT OF AREAS THAT ARE UNFRIENDLY TO US.
Re: Putting US citizens in jail indefinitely without due proces
Also, to the Aussies. I am for one an American citizen who IS OUTRAGED at what Pres Bush and the US administration is doing. I am probably the most unpopular person in America, but I think we are making big mistakes in our purported "war on terrorism." I also wont elaborate here, its another story altogether, but dont agree with BOMBING afghanistan and invading Iraq (announced today that we will do that, covertly, but same difference really, just more political and cowardly approach), etc, etc. I think we may be exacerbating the problems rather than solving them.
Re: Putting US citizens in jail indefinitely without due proces
I doubt very seriously whether you are the most unpopular guy in the States. There's a guy in my neighborhood who just will NOT mow his grass. And he's got stuff growing out of his gutters.
Seriously, I don't necessarily agree with bombing the hell out of places to see what happens. To be honest (not being the least bit informed on the subject,) it seems to me that you would only bomb a place to keep all the baddies' heads down before you sent in troops. I recall that warfares is supposed to be the forceful execution of government foreign policy. If there is anyone out there who can inform me of the slightest semblance our foreign actions can have to a coherent 'policy,' please take the time and inform me.
Anyway, point is, I am not saying go bomb the hell out of Afganistan. Or anywhere else, for that matter. Instead I say figure out what needs to be done, and do it. Not half-assed though, (Iraq.)
I most certainly believe that we must do 'something' to try to prevent this shi^H^Htuff (did you censor me earlier?) from happening again. There are people responsible, and they must be stopped. Will more take their place? Yep, and we gotta stop them too. Can't just stop and say "you win".
Re: Putting US citizens in jail indefinitely without due proces
Totally agree mutt, we cant stop and say you win, absolutely not. My whole thing is just what approach should we take, what is the best way to protect Americans and ALL people in the future. Does the bombing now (used psuedo metaphorically, by bombimg I meant the entire military action, including troops, etc) really make use better off? Maybe the answer is yes, hopefully it is, but also there may be other means to combat terrorism and fundamentalism.
Its not just the afghans, its not just Al Quaeda, there are nations on this Earth that have had to cope with terrorism from fundamentalism for hundreds or thousands of years, we need to figure out the root causes, not just keep shooting at moving targets (for example, Christian terrorists in England and Ireland, Islamic and Christian terrorists in Israel, white and black terrorists in South Africa, the entire Church of Scientology, etc).
I just think we may have proven the pound the @!#$ out of them approach is NOT effective, we have seen this before, maybe this has been the first time the states has been so involved, but this isnt new @!#$.
And no, I did not censor you, the phorum auto censors by default, there is a "bad" words list that it doesnt take out, but replaces with onomotopaeic words. Sorry.