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Really stupid discussion about Java versus .NET: TSS

Thu, 05/25/2006 - 10:54 — charlie.collins

Java Succumbing to .NET in my Organization

I say really stupid discussion based on the article itself *and* many of the comments. Most of these people agree that the problem with Java is that there are too many choices? That is not a reason to like or dislike Java, that is a reason to be lazy and go the other direction. There are also many choices in operating systems, email servers, cars to drive, homes to buy, LIFE, etc. Get over it. Doing some evaluation and picking a direction/making a choice is not by itself a bad thing.

Ending up stuck with one possible proprietary way to do things is a bad thing, though yes if you are really really lazy (or stupid) it is easier than spending a day or two evaluating other choices in other platforms.

Not having someone capable of making good decisions about what platforms and frameworks to use is also a bad thing. If your CTO is CTO because he read a computer magazine on the plane on the way over then yeah, you are in trouble if he is making your choices, but that, again, does not mean choices themselves are bad.

There are reasons to dislike Java. I am simply saying the "proliferation of frameworks" is a really stupid notion (not even qualifying as a reason) for choosing or not choosing anything.

A few people in the commentary noted smart things like, choice itself is not bad (hello, how did we end up with choices like Linux in the first place, open source, lots of people working on interesting problems and coming up with different ways to address them is not BAD) and that there are other actual reasons to prefer Java over .NET - or vice versa.

I am a Java guy though, so I will throw a few pro Java things out, its free, it has a far greater amount of libraries and more choices - WHICH I LIKE - and it actually runs on more than one platform (unlike the CLI, where did Microsoft come up with that idea anyway, hmmmm - even so why would you possibly even need a "choice" of platform?) and specifications for it are controlled by a committee representing various industry leading organizations and individuals (ok, and Hani who does not qualify as industry leading himself ;)).

If you are a Microsoft shop and you know you are always going to be a Microsoft shop and you have a lot of extra money to waste then sure, pick .NET, but do not NOT pick Java (or anything else) because there are too many choices, thats just dumb.

Comments

Thu, 05/25/2006 - 12:19 — jeepmutt (not verified)

RE: Really stupid discussion about Java versus .NET: TSS

You had to know that I would chime in on this one. I almost think that you just missed me and wanted to see if I was still around.

First of all, thanks to the guys at Mono, (and now Novel,) you have a free, (both speech and beer,) implementation that works on many different platforms. The guys at Mono have done a great job not only keeping up with the .net changes (1.0, 1.1, 2.0,) but also adding all the crap necessary to show winforms on all these other platforms. I personally have "ported" several apps to run on linux and 99.5% of the porting consisted of changing hard-coded path separators from backslashes to using the framework to get the path. (Which by the way is also the most common "porting" task that I've done to make Java apps actually run on both unices and windows OSs.)

Even without Mono, .NET in and of itself has never cost a dime. Don't get into the cost of Windows, because that is not the point. Not to mention that the proprietary unices cost an assload as well. So the whole "you have a lot of extra money" bit is just complete bunk. The runtime has always been free (beer, same as Java,) And the SDK has always been free. You used to pay quite a bit for a decent IDE, but they're even giving away a version of VS.NET for free nowadays.

One last thing is that, while I wouldn't argue that Java certainly has the lead with "stuff" out there, .net has quite an open-source presence as well. C# is not a bad language, (just ask the Java 1.5 guys that "borrowed" some features,) and similar enough that it is nearly trivial to port JSE-based apps/libs over. A lot of the big-name projects have .net counterparts (ant, junit, hibernate, etc.) Most started out as straight ports, but as they've matured, they're using the features of the language/framework and starting to pull their own weight and get a life of their own.

Now, I know that your post was flamebait and that I bit, but I just couldn't let it go.... I consider myself an agnostic in this particular religous war, but some of your "facts," gentle sir, are just plain wrong.

Thu, 05/25/2006 - 12:49 — atrox (not verified)

RE: Really stupid discussion about Java versus .NET: TSS

I agree that Mono (now Novel) is great and that the effort/intention is noble. However, the reality of the world is that no one is going to build a .Net app (The "Server" Side) using .Net and then deploy it on AIX using Mono (which is not yet totally CLI complete anyway).

I think Mono is great for smaller desktop apps, heck yeah. Run your .Net stuff on Linux and or on Windows. But, with a straight face, are you going to tell me that people are going to develop large sophisticated web apps in .Net and then deploy them on Solaris?

That aint happening, its a Microsoft solution meant for Microsoft servers (at least for now - and probably always - desktop aside).

And I stand corrected on the cost, yes .Net is free. I was thinking more along the lines of the platform to run it on though, I should have distinguished.

Thu, 05/25/2006 - 12:51 — atrox (not verified)

RE: Really stupid discussion about Java versus .NET: TSS

Also, if and when Mono/Novell is totally CLI compatible and people get the notion to start running server apps written in .Net on something other than Microsoft, if, guess what else will happen. Proliferation of tools and libraries - more than one choice - same as Java.

Right now it is a single choice of framework because no one gives a shit about running it (server side) on Solaris or Linux, etc. If that changes so will the choices.

Fri, 05/26/2006 - 16:14 — Shmooze (not verified)

RE: Really stupid discussion about Java versus .NET: TSS

OK I'll bite on this one as well - since I'm a .Net guy. If you have a small IT shop with largely independent developers (only kind of places I've worked) the proliferation of frameworks could be a problem. If every developer chooses to use a different one then you can end up with a mess. I guess in a 'real' IT Enterprise class group that never happens, but in the second tier (or lower) it's a real concern.
Oh and to answer your Mono question... yes I think you will see real server class apps going to Mono.

Sat, 05/27/2006 - 19:20 — jeepmutt (not verified)

RE: Really stupid discussion about Java versus .NET: TSS

And there are enterprise solutions that solely depend on Mono as the provider of their unix runtimes. Sourcegear's Vault is one that comes to mind.

Sun, 05/28/2006 - 06:41 — atrox (not verified)

RE: Really stupid discussion about Java versus .NET: TSS

If people are using Mono to write server side apps and host them on something other than Microsoft then I stand corrected again.

However, the original assertion about too many frameworks is still stupid.

If "A lot of the big-name projects have .net counterparts", such as Nibernate and Nuts and Nant and Nunit then you have the same "choices" with .Net (as I mentioned above - or at least you are getting there).

Again, choices are not bad, and you will have to make them appropriately regardless of the size of the shop in order to be successful (saying we are going to only use X from MS is also itself a choice - oh and if you choose not to decide . . . sorry got carried away there).

Tue, 05/30/2006 - 07:13 — jeepmutt (not verified)

RE: Really stupid discussion about Java versus .NET: TSS

I understand what you are saying... I just wanted to point out stat some of the 'facts' presented about .net we in the journalistic integrity biz call 'accurate'.

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