Guns, Germs and Steel

There has been a good bit of chatter, criticism of and praise for, Jared Diamond's "Guns Germs and Steel".

Now, I am only about 75% of the way through the book right now, but I find it very compelling. The overarching theme is a kind of Godel Esher Bach analysis of commonalites between environmental resources and levels of development.

Brad Delong hammers on some of the more rediculous criticisms of the book, but Kevin Drum brings up some interesting questions...

As interesting and compelling as this thesis is, however, a lot of readers come away dissatisfied because it doesn't go far enough. After all, it's a nice explanation for why Eurasia ended up dominating the world, but it doesn't explain why Europe ended up dominating the world. Why not the Muslims, the Hindus, or the Chinese, all of whom were also Eurasians and would have been long odds favorites over the Europeans if space aliens had been placing bets around 1,000 AD?

What's especially peculiar about this dissatisfaction with GG&S — and I shared it when I first read the book — is that it's completely unjustified. GG&S is about Eurasian civilization from around 8,000 BC to 1,000 AD, which is a plenty broad and demanding topic all by itself, and Diamond simply doesn't address the question of why Europe turned out to be top dog among the various Eurasian contenders. What's more, he even has a chapter at the end of GG&S where he specifically says this isn't the subject of his book and then lays out a bit of speculation on the question.

While I find myself wishing there were "more", I think Kevin is actually touching on some of the things that strike me about the book, while those make Kevin's point moot, they do affect the overaching theme of the book, but only slightly.

One of the things I was really taken aback by is the lack of discussion of the Khans in GG&S. I admit, books like this are high on my list and right now if I was going to put two books on anybodys "history" reading list, it would be this, and H.G. Wells Outline of World History. Wells, however, gives the Khans their due. The Mongolians that both took in external domesticated animals and then turned themselves into a hunter-gatherer *empire* goes directly against the nature of the book. However, this, along with the kind of silly question as to why its the Euorpeans and not the Central Asians or the Chinese that rule the world is rather like asking during the time of the Golden Khans why it is the east Asian steppe people rule the world. History is still in flux.

Now, through that critical level, yes, it was the Europeans that built empires by sailing the ocean blue and all that. However, that was, in many ways, a freak of timing. Moreover, you have to look at Diamond's discussion of conservatism in the adoption of technology -- very specifically foreign technology. He spends some time discussion, for instance, how the Japanese developed very fine firearms around 1500 then as a nation abandoned them because they were a threat to the nature of the Samurai. Certainly in terms of China and India the rigueur of their respective flavor of caste system, as well as a general social conservatism inspired by their faith certainly affected that "race to the world".

All in all, though, I admit I find the whole premise of GG&S a truely inspiring story, one that shows humans everywhere move to the best possible use of what is around them. Some people certainly got luckier than others, and lord knows that in raw timelines as populations, the Mediterranian peoples got a long head start on the Mesoamericans. Even still, I think the point that a 5500 AD Mayan empire might look very much like a 1500 AD European one very telling -- and if nothing else, the Mesoamericans were advancing FASTER than the Eurasians, they just got a 25,000 year late start.

I will post some more on GG&S once I finish it -- maybe this weekend. There are actually quite a number of things from the book I would like to talk about.

Comments

RE: Guns, Germs and Steel

Read Lynn and Vanhanen's "IQ and the Wealth of Nations" before you get too worked up about GG&S.

One of them is true. One of them is half-true. You decide!

RE: Guns, Germs and Steel

I havent read the book, but really liked the ideas in the PBS series (I guess the "movie" version).

Very straightforward and logical concepts. (And in the TV series they did admit that one of the criticisms was that it was too simple for some to believe it.)

RE: Guns, Germs and Steel

"IQ and the Wealth of Nations"

God what a horrible book.

RE: Guns, Germs and Steel

Yeah I havent read IQ and the Wealth either, so I am completely unqualified to spout my mouth of here, but that has never stopped me before. ;)

I have read about IQ and the premise seems to me to be quite flawed. How do you compare the IQ of a person from Equatorial Guinea to one from England? This book gives them all "scores" but how are the tests done?

IQ in general is marginally worthwhile at best, much less when given to people that are so different from those giving the test and evaluating the results (maybe the authors make efforts to make the tests what they felt was appropriate but I am not impressed when the range is Guinea 80 avg and England 100 avg, that to me indicates more issues with the tests and test takers than with the testees - now dont get me wrong, I am not afraid to say race matters, I just dont draw such conculusions without very solid data - and an IQ test is not solid data - much less an IQ test devised by a western college professor given to a hunter-gatherer type native person - regardless of the effort to normalize the test for the circumstance).

RE: Guns, Germs and Steel

s/of/off

RE: Guns, Germs and Steel

The problem with IQ, or a lot of those measures has to do with the way humans are built and what they learn. Even now we learn more and more about differences in our genetic expression that are cued to early life experiences (mice, for instance, with a twitchy mother deactivate an endorphin producing gene and become twitchy themselves, meaning a genetically homogeneous population develops different genetic expressions based on the threat level of their environment). To say that the neural map and responses between a polynesian hunter-gatherer and a dude on the lower east side should be the same is almost silly. Neither is going to have the mental abilities from the neural growth level-- and very likely will have vastly different environmental-based genetic expressions-- that would allow them to test an "IQ" in the other's "World".

RE: Guns, Germs and Steel

I have read GGS and the thesis in my opinion goes too far. it simply explained nothing and made little sense unless of course your ideas are totally based on evolution thus showing favoritism to evolutionists and evolutionists are the only ones who can read the book and make any sense of it.

RE: Guns, Germs and Steel

The problem is that the book's thesis simply fails to make sense of itself to all readers ( as I am failing to do right now.) It only makes sense to those who are evolutionists. It is a good thesis but it does not and can not defend itself against those of a different belief

RE: Guns, Germs and Steel

One more thing for geniuses neither of you can spell. learn how to do so and you will have more effective arguments.A little advice (^_^)

RE: Guns, Germs and Steel

wow all of you are nerds

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