Screaming Penguin - Source Does Matter

Iceland is just amazing place. (I know this is not where you were going, but worth checking out.) http://www.iceland.org/

I don't want this to sound like I don't think hydrogen and fuel cell vehicles are great, they are. But they press is overlooking some extremely important facts.

The energy to produce hydrogen needs to come from somewhere: fossil fuels, nuclear power, wind power, solar panels, algae (with energy from the sun) -- Take your pick.

Hydrogen is a great means of storing power. Think of it as a battery. If batteries could be made with the same storage density; they would be a much better way of distributing power. The distribution system is already in place - that socket in your wall.

A lead acid battery weighing 320 kg stores the same energy as one liter of gasoline. apx 150 Wh/kg. As soon as someone has a battery that stores 20 times this, hydrogen won't matter, some people claim that aluminum air batteries can store 4,000 Wh/kg; no one has produced one - yet.

Hydrogen will be a means of keeping oil companies in charge of your fuel source. They will distribute hydrogen for use in vehicles the same way that they use gasoline. Yes, you can generate your own H2 at home, do a web search; but this would need to be pressurized in order to get a reasonable amount in your vehicle. The oil companies know that world oil production will peak in 2007 and need a replacement media.

Auto companies love H2 because it will significantly reduce the cost of manufacturing a vehicle. The materials, catalysts are more expensive, but the number of manufacturing steps are fewer. With many fewer moving parts. You can use H2 in a reciprocating engine and realize environmental benifits; but this would not be as efficient and the auto companies want you to buy a new car ($20K +), not a new fuel tank and fuel injection system ($6K).

Hydrogen generation from water is 80% efficient at best, tank to wheel efficiencies for H2 fuel cell vehicles are 36 percent. Diesel (or biodiesel) hybrids have tank to wheel efficiencies of 25 percent. Including the 80% H2 generation efficiency Fuel cells have no better than 38 percent or so, nothing to sneeze at, but this requires a new infrastructure that further enables, and enriches, those in power; With our tax money.
By the way efficiency at a power plant is at best 50%; if this is taken into account, fuel cell vehicles are actually less efficient; Now who likes oil and the status quo?: George, Dick, or Ralph?

Using hydrogen just moves the source of power generation. There are no "Hydrogen Reserves" that are being drilled (excercise for the reader to find the reserve; yes there is one).

If you want to lower our reliance on foriegn oil, do the following:

First, rent the movie Rapanui, we are the first society to believe that resources are infinite.

Replace incandescent bulbs with compact fluorescent bulbs; in addition to being 5 times more efficient, the lower heat load lowers air conditioning costs too.

Move closer to work.

Buy wind power from your utility ($5.00 to $10.00 per month), if you change your light bulbs your bills will still be lower.

Ride a bike.

Vote for improved funding of alternative energy; wind, solar, geothermal.

Move closer to work.

Sell your SUV, this would also lower other costs (per accident an individiual in an SUV is more likely to die than in a conventional vehicle). Or buy one before you reproduce.

Buy a flat panel TV. Or just throw out your existing TV and go dancing, voluteer, or see a play.

Plant trees next to, or install awnings above, windows with high solar loads.

Oh, Did I mention? move closer to work.

ok i give up, who said anything about "enforce" foreign policy? where did that crap come from?

also I wasnt making an argument about rainforest v plane. you seem to be so biased when you hear anyone talk about spending in that manner than you uh, cant see the forest for the trees?

i simply stated how much those dumbass planes cost. my point was the disparity in spending, not that the planes should cost less or that the planes are bad or that, whatever.

ahh, then you do get my point. Yer the one that brought up the plane in the first place. We're talking about hydrogen and then there's bombers in the mix.

I just took the opportunity to do a bit of ranting.

I still wanna know if me telecommuting and owning an SUV balance out. Wouldn't want to offend anyone, ya know :)

I agree. But if I can't tell who's replying to who, then I can't follow the conversation unless I am in 'flat view' where I can see all of them.

But, for you, I go back to threaded view. Where I will stay until I get logged out and put back into flat view, that is. :P

We will still be consuming 25%, or more, of the world's oil after we convert to hydrogen.

We have to stop wasting energy, and use as many clean ways to generate electricity; such as wind or solar.

The average home in the U.S. could cut consumption in half without any significant changes in lifestyle.
Generating power at the point of use is great, many more of us should do this!

Tthere are large sociological barriers for resident home owners to install such systems, or to take much action to lower consumption. Sales of compact fluorescents in California is less than 4% of the market. Go figure.

These barriers seem to be lower in Europe where deregulation of electricity has been more successful. One reason may be that utilities are an institution that most Americans trust, maybe our last trusted centralized institution. Raise your hand if you trust Enron to deliver your electricity and gas.

There may be a basic human need for centralized organizations. We are social creatures; a large part of our being is concerned with caring for and being taken care of.

With little remaining support in the U.S. for the social systems put in place during the Roosevelt-Johnson years, it may be that electric, natural gas, and the institutional monopolies of the oil companies satisfy some important social psychological need.

Support for this idea comes from socialized nations where local generation, conservation and individual responsibility for consumption are a normal part of the culture. In these countries; aggressive taxation of fuel has motivated VW, MB, Fiat, GM and others to produce, and sell, many vehicle models with mileage of better than 70 mpg. These contries have other strong centralize institutions: health care, education, and public transportation.

Are our corporations our new trusted centralized institutions: Shell, Ford, McD, Gap, Nike? Do we trust these companies more than our elected leaders?