Screaming Penguin

Amen

I disagree. Can you provide me the quotes where he said these things in the State of the Union? Seriously. Tell me EXACTLY what he said. If they are so well documented, tell me EXACTLY what he said.

Oh, and by the way, I'm not indignant about anything. I am, like yourself, eager for the truth to come out. Unfortunately, I don't think we can ever get the whole truth from either politicians or the media. But the continual harping of LIE LIE LIE is just mind numbing! So you think Bush lied about WMD's??? [url=http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Printable.asp?ID=10288]Article on WMD's and Iraq.[/url] Then so did UNSCOM, Bill Clinton, the Democratic party, etc. EVERYONE believed that he had WMD's. So now why is Bush lying by stating what everyone else believes to be true? About the nuclear program: Here is the actual quote from the state of the union: 'The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa'. Note that it says the British Government has learned (and they still stand by the assertion), also, it says 'Africa', not Niger. So was this a lie or a reliance on intelligence that might be incorrect? Well, i'm guessing you'll go for the lie lie lie! approach. Amusingly enough, the French intelligence service, the DGSE � the Directorate-General of External Safety, has been fingered as one of the sources that MI6 used in its uranium report. So maybe we should just blame the French (my personal favorite option). Now, I admit that any connection between Saddam and Al Quaida is tenuous at best, although there are known connections earlier in the 90's. However, I DO believe that Saddam supported terrorism in general. This I can't offer up specific proof for. But, I just have a feeling that evil folks out for US blood might have shared agendas and resources. I have stated this before - I'm not sure if anything was a deliberate lie, exagerations in order to gain support, or just reliance on bad intelligence. I do know that of all three, my least favorite is the bad intelligence. This is the most dangerous aspect. My next least favorite is the lies. True, all politicians lie, but lying about life and death matters is serious. Exagerations? It wouldn't be American politics otherwise. I think that there is plenty of evidence supporting the fact that Saddam was a bad guy, was doing bad things and, if left unchecked, would continue to bad things. I also believe that the UN is completely inept and could not find their ass if they hadn't wiped in a month. I think that Saddam did support terrorism in some aspects. I think that what happened needed to be done. Will I vote for Bush? Hell no. Will I vote for a Democrat? Not if forced at gunpoint. Will I ever reach a final conclusion? Yeah, right.

Um, OK. No, the US can't get out of Iraq yet, nor do we want to. To pull out now would make the whole effort meaningless and result in Iraq falling under the control of the first dictator able to scrape together enough military support. Crap - it hasn't even been a year! Americans nowadays are absolutely spoiled - they think all things militarily can be done in a couple of months. This just isn't the case.

Even though I disagree with the way we engaged on this one I totally agree that we cannot leave now. We cannot leave not not only because it would be stupid and irresponsible, but also illegal. If we can pull a democracy out of this that would be great, I still believe that can happen, although again I do disagree with the means to justify said end. At this point though we cant bail, thats just stupid.

Its funny, everyone loves to talk about how inept the UN is, but one of the really interesting things that has been [url=http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?031027fa_fact]point out[/url] recently is the UN and IAEA assesment of the state of Saddam's weapons programs seems to be beating the CIA's "across the board". Yes, even in the State of the Union address where President Bush laid out a laundry list of "evidence" (all of which turned out to have been debunked by the intelligence community before the war), he still glossed over the idea of "imminent threat". The problem with that is, "imminent threat" is the definition by which a preemptive stike is justified by our treaty obligations. Now, the Bush Administration is knee deep in corpses of treaties already, but this is an important point. Without that definition you are giving a mandate to any country who percieves hostile intention and escalating capability from another nation to unilaterally act. That aside, however, the Brushing aside of imminence falls into the patter of language parsing that the administration has become so great at. McClellan won't say that Libby and Rove aren't responsible for Plame, rather he glosses over it with plausibly deniable phrases. Dick Cheny won't say Saddam had anything to do with Sept 11, but he will go on Meet the Press and give a 250 word response that leads you there 6 ways from Sunday. Either the administration knowingly lied, or they are terribly inept. (The article I linked to above seems to opt for the latter explanation) I am not sure which is worse, really.

Ah, good old democracy. The single worst form of government going. So ineffecient any half baked crook can play the system and capitalize on the confusion inherent in it (Dick Cheney anyone?). It's a god damned good thing that it's only a theory, and never practiced in reality. Oh, and sure whip it onto some people that have been under a totalitarian regime of one sort or another since before the dawn of history. Yeah that'll work out. Your post is a shining example of how simple minded most really are. Also, your view expressed is the party line justifying international crime. Keep the faith! Fact Iraq has 30% of the known oil reserves in the world. Fact There is no link between Iraq and terrorists, or WMD. Lets do the math. The *ONLY* reason the US is getting away with what they're getting away with is the democratic society the action stems from is too damned blamed stupid and their leaders can get away with murder! Democracy in action ya gota lub it. Why it's the perfect alabi, a mandate from the people, the will of the masses. Yeah huh?